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*** THE ALIYAH REVOLUTION ALBUM ***

Wednesday, January 23, 2008

Leave Olmert Alone



The Israeli right has achieved very little in the 14 years that have passed since the Oslo disaster. Therefore, its ideologues and motivators must comport themselves with a little more modesty, and a lot more originality, than they currently seem to. Yet the opinion columns and the conference podium microphones all seem to be broadcasting the same tired old messages to us: don't give up this or that territory, don't give up this or that principle, let the IDF win, take back Gaza, bomb it from the air, don't give them guns, give them homes, free the girls, Olmert is a traitor.

As a consumer of messages, I find this fare dull and unsatisfying. And after 14 years of this menu, I would like something new please, waiter.

Here is what I find myself thinking lately: of course Olmert has no right to discuss giving up Jerusalem. Of course Israel is losing its last shreds of self-respect and deterrence in the way it is dealing with the Gazan bombardment of Sderot. Of course throwing money at Abbas and his "moderate" murderers is no solution to anything.

But maybe there is a reason for this loss of direction, and maybe just saying the current leaders have lost touch with Judaism and are an "erev rav" does them a certain degree of injustice.

Let's say we bomb Gaza into oblivion (a move I support, by the way. It is certainly better than sending our boys in there to get killed by the barbarian hordes). What then? Well, here is what happens then: the US administration disowns us, in a series of speeches by the President in which Israel is branded "a state overcome by fanaticism" and its government a "rogue leadership." The UN adopts a series of resolutions condemning Israel's genocide and the Hague court demands Israel extradite war criminals Olmert, Barak and Ashkenazi, for starters. No Israeli officer can expect to step on British, French, Russian or American soil any more, or anywhere else for that matter, without being arrested immediately. NATO begins training for bombing Tel Aviv. Iran develops and tests its bomb unimpeded.

What will Israel do then? Oh, I know – we will publish dozens and dozens of opinion columns in which our finest minds say "they are an erev rav!"… and at the same time, our hilltop youth will build another ramshackle hut somewhere and declare victory, even as the boots of the Border Guards are climbing the hill to tear everything back down.

Okay.

Now that everyone hates me, let me say this: I have the greatest respect for our heroes and heroines. I admit that do not have in me an ounce of the courage they seem to pack in tons in each of their Jewish hearts. I am no good at facing the police, I am no good at climbing the mountains, I do not have in me one percent of the bravery of the little girls who refused to identify themselves in court, not to mention the bravery of those who face the enemy every day as they drive about the roads of our beloved heartland, laughing in the face of the monsters of Ramallah, Shechem, Kalkilya, Jenin and Hevron. I was not even a very tough soldier in my army days (although I do have a green tank driver's license somewhere in my files).

Really, I have nothing in me that can compare to these people's courage and spirit.

But practically speaking (governments are, first and foremost, in charge of practical solutions) what do we want from the government? Think about it: a Yitzchak Shamir is not enough here. It is not enough to be able to stand fast and give up nothing. We can stand fast and give up nothing, but the Kassams will keep humiliating us. And the only way we can stop them is by creating mass carnage on the Arab side. Targeting the Hamas leadership won't do the job. They will just go underground. Besides, they grow heads back faster than skinks grow back tails, and the new ones are always just as ugly as the previous ones. I will say it again: practically speaking, only by creating mass carnage on the other side can we stop the Kassams for good.

Benny Elon's plan for voluntary Arab evacuation and compensation is nice for parlor talk. Hamas will only understand a "plan" like the one wreaked upon the Arabs by the combined forces of Haganah, Palmach, Etzel and Lechi in 1948. We all know this in our heart of hearts. So do we do to Gaza – and possibly Hevron, Ramallah and Shechem, what we did to Tzfat and Lod three score years ago? Yes or no?

Right.

This is the stage at which people say – "okay, smart-aleck, we get what you are saying. But what do YOU suggest?".

I will not fall into that trap. Not just yet. Let's see how this article goes down before we proceed to Stage Two. What do you think about this, dear readers? Practically speaking, how does Israel deal with the aftermath of a Gaza operation that costs thousands of Arab lives, half of them women and children? Please use the talkback function to express yourselves.

Speak, and spell out a long term practical policy, please – or leave Olmert (or "mert", or "Olmerde," as he is affectionately known in these parts) alone, because you don't have a better idea of what to do than he does.

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24 Comments:

  • At 12:10 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Oooh ooh! Me first!

    How about we:

    1) Get rid of the idea that "something must be done" (e.g. destroying settlements, redrawing borders, building 10 meter high concrete walls) and go on with our lives. If you're so fixated on "solving the conflict," I heard they made a video game about that (google it).Go sit in front of your computer and play it and leave the rest of us alone.

    2) Stop recognizing the Palestinain Authority as anything other than the terrorist organization that they are.

    3) Respond to Kassams by waging war against Hamas. Remember what happened during Defensive Shield. No one "disowned" us and most people understood that what we were doing was just, despite the the hostile media, despite the UN, and despite Paliwood.

    This is what everyone on the "right" is saying. If you choose not to listen to listen or to invent boogey-men that somehow magically make everything other than what Olmert is doing a catastrophe for Israel, that's your problem.

     
  • At 2:35 PM , Blogger Malkah said...

    My understanding is that your suggestion is the classic "Bomb 'Em" scenario, and you're asking if Israel is ready to deal with a situation in which we'd be the pariahs of the world, and in which women and children would be victims.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but all of these elements are already in place.

    Leaders on the world stage can barely contain their revulsion whenever placed in contact with us, and are seething to end this "conflict" to our detriment - note the nice confederation of states participating in Peace Now work. The only reason they continue normalized relations with us is because we are so valuable to them economically and strategically - if we weren't, they wouldn't feel the need to humor us with any lengthy humanitarian or other seemingly "logical" explanations.

    Regarding the victimization of women and children - that is already occuring, on Israel's side of the border. For the last many years, Jewish women and children, grandpas, store clerks, kindergarten teachers and florists have been the target of evil people who have no dreams of success, no projects of interest other than to annhilate our teeny state. If I know the Jewish people, and I think I do, the large scale eradication of terrorists at the expense of some civilian lives will cause tears to flow on even the most stalwart of faces. What's right isn't always easy. But we are already sacrificing civilians every day, and allowing a situation to fester which threatens everyone it touches, Arab "civilians" included. We would do best to end this conflict now, for everyone's good.

    In conclusion, I am in favor of a more severe, less pinpointed military action, and hope that everyone - Jews and Muslims - will ultimately benefit from a clarification of our position on remaining in the Land of Israel.

     
  • At 3:10 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Gil Ronen is right. A ground offensive into Gaza would be a disaster for Israel. It is exactly what Hamas is hoping for and planning for since the Expulsion. A war in Gaza would be worse then the Second Lebanon Ware. Let’s not forget that Ehud Barak is our Defense Minister now. The best way today to fight the rocket attacks is by cutting the electricity, gas, water and sealing the borders. As far as a permanent solution, that would be an all-out war against all the Arabs including nuking Iranian nuclear facilities as well as nuking Mecca. The atomic bomb is what stopped the Japanese in World War II and that’s what we need to stop the Arabs today; A total defeat of the Arab Muslim empire.

     
  • At 6:52 PM , Blogger גיל רונן said...

    Natan, Defensive Shield was undertaken at the height of a massive terror war by Arafat against Israel, that killed 10-20 people a day.

    Also, while it was carried out against relatively well-defended positions like the Jenin camp, Jenin was nothing like Gaza, which has been fortified and made into a south-Lebanon-type area, with Hamas as Hizbullah.

    Even if we only suffer casualties like we did in Defensive Shield, that is a lot. And we will likely suffer many more than that. A recent IDF exercise reportedly predicted 700 KIA.

    IDF soldiers should not be sacrificed this way.

    Malkah, "more severe, less pinpointed military action" is not very specific. Like I said - if you just want to go for their leadership, it won't solve the problem. Their gumen are interspersed with civilians, on purpose. If you want to destroy them militarily you can either go in with soldiers and sacrifice the soldiers, or you bomb from the air and kill many many civilians. They purposely made it that way.

    It sucks but please don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger.

     
  • At 9:04 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Gil, i think 'More severe, less pinpointed military action' is quite specific.
    Look at the way so called 'Civilized nations' are prosecuting their wars today. The fashionable trend of striking targets of military value and sparing civilians to minimize colateral damage as a way of forcing a distinction between the two, when too often there is no seperation of the two, leads to more problems than the original threat caused. Look at our situation with Iraq. Your situation with Gaza....
    Theres a time and a place for carpet bombing.
    (I don`t presume to speak for you Malka. I know your ability to defend your own position but just could`nt resist adding my own 2 Shkeles worth!)

     
  • At 10:47 PM , Blogger גיל רונן said...

    With due respect, I want an actual plan. You are Defense Minister, you are told more Kassams have hit Sderot.

    What instructions do you give?

     
  • At 11:51 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    That's an easy one and frankly, very simple Jewish answer.

    First off, there is no reason to keep doing anything militarily if we only; return arrested terrorists and persist in 'negotiations' about how much we are willing to surrender whether it is Jerusalem, 'territories', right of return, other compensation, etc... People always whine about Israeli hasbara failing but the equation is so simple: none will ever work because A) we justify the Arab position by giving their demands legitimacy B) there are too many anti-zionist politicians in the government who have no problem voicing their personal opinion in the [overseas] media which is frankly, unprofessional no matter what they think.

    Next, either four options: 1) accept facts on the ground or 2) try to turn back time 3) Hayozma. So, after we learn to guard our tongue, we stick to our ground. 1) We refuse to talk any further until the Arabs living in Yesha stop the terrorist pressure and perform what they agreed to do in all the Oslo Accords before resuming talks and/or we openly declare that there is no 'partner' and have the patience to wait for one whether it is a year or twenty. 2) or we openly admit our mistake of signing the Oslo accords with a 'people' that has no wish to live with us and refuse to accept our presence, and we refuse to do anything without this public acceptance. Then we reopen 'negotiations' about their surrender and accepting our terms - Jordanian citzenship for Yosh, Egyptian for Gaza. Residency extended to all, and immediate enforcement of Israeli law in Yesha with regard to building codes, taxes, etc... 3)Benny Elon's 'initiative'. Step up efforts to encourage Arab emmigration, it does not have to take too much more than subsidizing immigration lawyers and giving them a decent pillow to start a life somewhere else.

    4) my favourite - we annouce the 'disengagement plan' a complete failure and start plans to resettle to Gush Katif.

    folloerd by 2 and 3.

     
  • At 4:48 AM , Blogger גיל רונן said...

    Josh,

    Your answer is my favorite to date. It is the type of answer I was looking for, even if I do not agree with it.

    It helps me understand the problem. People still think we can live with this situation, somehow. It has not sunk in that there is no way we can live in a tiny state that has a couple of million Hamasniks inside its kishkes, inside an Islamicized Middle East.

    Elon's Hayozma says, IIRC, we offer compensation to people in the "refugee camps" to leave, and that they will be resettled in Jordan and elsewhere. Since there is no way in a thousand years any Arab leader - especially a Jordanian one - would take in all of these refugees, and no way the Arab world would accept this because they WANT US DEAD or at least HUMILIATED and kept bleeding by the "Palestinian people" which they created for this express purpose and have been maintaining for this express purpose... I fail to comprehend what any Israeli could possibly see in Hayozma unless it is just for the feel-good quality in being able to say "relocate (wink wink)."

    I don't get it, Josh. Please to explain. I really do not get the thinking behind Hayozma.

     
  • At 7:33 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    I'm with you Gil, I love the Olmert administration. I love his impotence. Of course, my opinion of him could change this year but so far this past two years have been quite enjoyable. Not so in Sderot of course. Nor was the North a pleasure cruise the Summer before last. Otherwise, terror has been at an all time low, businesses in Jerusalem are bustling once again. Our economy is on the move (as opposed to the sinking dollar).

    I damn well might vote for him.

    My solution is thus: make sure that whatever promises Olmert makes to Bush is only lip service (which I get the feeling that this is Olmert's intention).

    With Gaza I think we should complete the disengagement to a 100% level. We stop providing all services to them, completely until their rocket attacks subside. Look how bad they were hurting when we stop supplying gas to them for three days. They cried like whining babies. World opinion would be loud but tolerable. And yes let them die because of hunger because of no electricity to their hospitals. Let them die from our lack of love. This will change their minds about voting for Hamas.

     
  • At 10:55 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    anonymous,
    essentially what you are saying is, 'let them (us) watch tv'. As long as the economy is okay, we can ignore the problems brewing in the background. The whole idea of initiating a solution (offence) instead of always being in defence (for the past 15 years of Oslo). As for the 'disengagement', the actual disengagement plan that few bothered to read or even knows what is inside, actually does not talk about any disengagement at all. The plan talks about kicking Jews out of their homes, and then procedes to talk about our requirement to rehabilitate the Gaza economy, increase employment visas, and ensure a stable supply of gas and electricity. But who cares about that plan, right?

    Gil,
    I admit I have not read the hayozma plan, just the basic idea. I am also not an active supporter of it, just that it is a decent plan, the only plan that any orange people have actually tabled. Getting rid of the refugees (giving them subsidies to leave) will improve the living standard of the rest who decide to stay as Israeli residents, with no voting priviledges. Raising the living standard lowers their decreasing fertility even more. So does exposure to western culture. Seeing tens of thousands of their brethen leaving will also encourage others to discover 'refugee' roots and apply for emmigration help. The idea is a reverse Nefesh bNefesh. Why only depend on Arab countries (though they will prosper from new influx of rich refugees), we need to encourage emmigration to western countries. More Arabs in the US, Canada, France, and UK puts more sense into the Jews there to get out of dodge over to hear already.

    I recently did miluim on the seperation fence. The army explained to my commanders who then explained to us and the soldiers that the fence is holy, and prevents suicide bombers. I had the guts to argue with my religious company commander (who lives in the mercaz), that the fence is not an obstacle, fact is that several bombers have entered little Israel depsite it, but the timing of building the fence as the number of bombings dropped leads people to see a direct relationship.

    You see, the fence, I oppose, is ugly, anti-environment, but has reduced property theft slightly(!). The main goal was to stop suicide bombers but in the last published report to the knesset of the reduction in terror did not mention the fence even once. My analysis is that the fence going up around the Arabs in 'Yosh' and Gaza for that matter, is a physical sign, interpreted sub-consciously by these Arabs as an end to their dream of expansion and eretz palestine hashlema. It began to sink in that they were stuck sitting in their own juice. The fence created a massive jail, and it hurts them deeply. There upper class continues to send children overseas for school, the academics merely leave for work.

    I emailed an immigration lawyer a couple of years back. He said he had steady work, but if someone could subsidize the high cost per client (large families), then he would have much more work.

     
  • At 1:33 AM , Blogger גיל רונן said...

    anonymous,

    I would not go so far as to say I love the Olmert administration. Olmert will not go down well in history. Based on tonight's news, it sure looks like the entire Annapolis process will end up as a big fund-raiser for the terrorists, nothing else.

    My main point was to try and get people to offer their own plans, other than calling Olmert names.

    Josh,

    I have a theory about the dati public. The dati public is deeply conservative. It is conservative in a very deep sense of the word: the entire Jewish-religious way of life celebrates life's everyday routine, and thus makes people very happy with what they have. This is not conducive to bold political initiatives of any kind. G-d is in charge of those things, basically. We are just men and women.

    The leftist mindset, on the other hand, sees the world as a canvas on which Man paints his masterpiece. Anything is legitimate: reprogramming entire societies, moving populations, creating new entities and erasing old ones. This opens the door for great immorality and chaos but also for great creativity and improvisation.

    Elon's plan as you presented it, I am sorry to say, is in total disconnect with what is possible. It is neither here nor there. It presupposes that we have all the time in the world and that things will always be as they are. It fails to see that there are dark storm clouds brewing and that we need to come up with a gameplan, a war plan, a strategy for the Middle East. Peres' New Middle East is BS, but at least it is a sweeping vision. We need our vision of a New Middle East, and of a New World. And then we need to sell that to our allies (whom we need to find first) and scare our enemies with it. And then we need to implement it.

    Arabs will not take money to relocate. They will not do it because the second you offer it to them, the Saudis and Iranians will (a) offer them more to stay, and (b) start killing anyone who goes along with the offer.

    The Muslims have too much invested in this struggle, Josh. They're not stupid. We are the stupid ones. Look how they played us for fools again in Gaza, with the whole candlelight shpiel. Come on, get with it. This is Hollywood and you are putting on a first-grade play, if that.

     
  • At 2:36 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Oh boy....I sure do miss Kahana.

     
  • At 5:21 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    How about we do to the Arabs what Joshua did to the Canaanites?

    Call it OPERATION JOSHUA.

    Consult your local Bible for details.

     
  • At 11:52 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Gil Ronen:

    Also, while it was carried out against relatively well-defended positions like the Jenin camp, Jenin was nothing like Gaza, which has been fortified and made into a south-Lebanon-type area, with Hamas as Hizbullah.

    Let me ask you a personal question. Have you been to Gaza? Did you see it with your own eyes or are you relying on hearsay and 10 second clips from news channels to come to these conclusions?

    I've been to Gaza (before and after the hitnatkut) and to Lebanon during the war while I was in sadir. No, I'm not in sayeret matkal or palsar golani, just a gdudnik shirioner. But at least I've seen both places with my eyes and participated in the fighting against both the Arabs in Gaza and Hizballah.

    One thing I learned in the army is if you didn't see it with your own eyes you have no idea what you're talking about. And here I'll admit that I wasn't in the army yet during Defensive Shield and I have no right to talk about how the fighting there went. But we all know the results.

    Anyone who compares Lebanon and Gaza has no idea what he's talking about or (in the case of politicians and army people who are aspiring politicians)is lying.

    If the government decides to do so we can turn Gaza into our back yard and stop the rockets. And it won't be another Lebanon war (even with Olmert at the helm) because Gaza is nothing like Lebanon and the Arabs in Gaza are nothing like the Hizballah.

    Mr anonymous:

    I damn well might vote for him.

    I'm sure you will. You sound like exactly the type of person who would vote for Olmert. As long as you're doing ok and it's other people whose blood was spilled for nothing in Lebanon, other people who are having rockets fall on their homes in Sderot and other people who are murdered by terrorists because of Olmert's "good-will gestures" to Abu Babu, this government is okey-dokey by you.

     
  • At 5:24 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Speaking of new rhetoric, I'm tired of hearing from so called "christians" in the Holy Land, including Catholic priests, whose last names are clearly of Arab origin, blaming Israel for the humanitarian crisis of the Palestinians. I feel like the christian religion is being hijacked by Muslims to create a platform to promote the Palestinian agenda, that is, destroy Israel.

    How about blaming the Palestinian leaders, who hoard all their money from oil and "deals" with other governments, who do not help their own people build houses and pick up their damn garbage!

    Oh,and here's a good one, if we are going to call the Gaza situation "Hell" than why not call Sderot "Hell" as well. Lets talk about the humanitarian crisis going on in Sderot! I feel better now. Thanks for 'listening'! judith

     
  • At 7:12 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    natan,

    Thought we were having a civilized discussion here, you're assumptions about me were ignorant at best. You can't read a talk back and assume the character or an entire human being.

    With that I shall defend my position. I am looking at Israel in a holistic sense. I love living in Israel and I think Israel on a whole is going forward in a big way and I think the economy is a marker for such a conjecture.

    Just because I say I'm happy with the Olmert administration doesn't mean all my other points that I made should be ignored.

    a. I said I like him because of his impotence. I'm sorry but I voted for Sharon and he screwed me (us). I blame Sharon for Gaza not Olmert. I don't want another "effective" right wing shmuck to come in and do the left wings bidding again. Been there no thanks. Show me a leader that I can truly believe in, otherwise I'll stick with the incapable Olmert.

    b. It sucks in Sderot no doubt, but I think what Gil did very effectively is to show what a difficult situation it is to solve given real world politics.

    c. I did make a suggestion which was completely ignored. I think things are for the most part good in Israel. That shouldn't pin me as a guy that doesn't care for what is wrong about Israel. I said that we should take the concept of disengagement and go full throttle. We should disengage from Gaza in all aspects. No gas, electricity, medical care, food, employment permits...nothing. I'm promising, do it, and watch them beg for mercy. I think this idea is doable, internation pressure will be at a loud but tolerable level, it won't mare our morale integrity whatsoever. It seems good to me.

    d. the main problem is that we don't get together as a people to discuss our ideas on the merit of the ideas alone. You are always this type of guy or that type of guy. The right says bomb them (not feasible). The left says love them (a faith not connected to reality). It's our problem as Jews to see the world as left and right. We need to see eachother as a people and discuss civily how to solve our problems.

     
  • At 9:40 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Mr. Anonymous

    You can't read a talk back and assume the character or an entire human being.

    Sometimes a few words reveal a great deal about a person. And your second comment confirms that the impression that I got about you from your first comment wasn't far off the mark.

    I don't know who you are. Maybe you got here a month ago and have no idea what happened in Lebanon. Maybe you're in Chicago pretending to be an Israeli. Whatever. On the internet nobody knows you're a dog. But since you say that you voted for Sharon I'm going to take your word for it that you came here before the war.

    I've seen how Olmert's incompetence translated into the death of people I knew. Death for nothing. I'm not going to go into the details of what happened to me personally during the war. But if you lived in Israel during the war and have eyes and ears you'd understand that the war was mismanaged and lost. Soldiers were sent to fight and then betrayed by the politicians. People died because of Olmert's incompetence. I don't think you need someone close to you to have died in Lebanon to understand this. And I don't think you need to have fought in Lebanon to understand this either.

    Did that month really fly by so fast for you in the oref without leaving a mark? Or were you out of the country when it happened?

    Because if you were in the country and are aware of what happened and still continue to support Olmert because the economy is doing well, (meaning that you'd want Olmert lead the country during the next war) then you're exactly the "type" that I thought you were.

    Don't worry though, you seem to be a member of the majority in this country. Next week when me and a few others will be standing under the rain demonstrating for Olmert to resign after Winograd you'll be sitting in front of your TV saying "meh, what do those stupid miluimniks want? The economy is doing well so why should they be trying to rock the boat?" And if I had to bet I'd say that your side will win.

    Regarding your last point, note that me and you aren't on the opposite sides of the political map. We're both on the "right." And yet I find your views more despicable and more dangerous to this country than those of people who vote for meretz. The real division isn't between the right and the left. It's between people with ideology (a small minority) and those without ideology (the majority).

     
  • At 10:22 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    natan,

    you have me pegged for someone ignorant on what happened in the north and someone who has lived in Israel for a short time. You get this vibe from the a talk back and you are completely wrong. yet you don't display any modesty to admit that just because I don't think exactly the way you do this means you know exactly who i am. And that i don't have ideology is the biggest joke. but whatever.

    you're such a superior idealist, when you stand in the rain to protest for olmert's resignation who do you have in mind to replace him? because we both know who is waiting in the wings, bibi and barak. excuse me for wanting those two to sit down for as long as possible.

    also i'm sorry you're having such a miserable time here in israel. so much so that you have a need to attack someone who thinks one breath of air here is a blessing.

    yes i see the problems. olmert got rid of the defense minister and ramat kal with more competent people. for the same reason that we can't bomb gaza is the same reason we really couldn't have fought the war in lebennon any other way. i feel with barak as defence minister the next war will be run more efficiently.

    and for the third time i believe cutting off all aid and supplies to gaza is the realistic solution. believe me, i'm the first person that would like to see gaza bombed silly. but gil didn't ask for the solution that we'd most like to see carried out he asked for a solution that would be the most feasible and effective.

    work on your ahavat israel a little more.

     
  • At 10:49 PM , Blogger גיל רונן said...

    Let me ask you a personal question. Have you been to Gaza?

    Not in the past decade or two.

    Did you see it with your own eyes or are you relying on hearsay and 10 second clips from news channels to come to these conclusions?

    There have been quite a few reports quoting IDF soldiers and commanders saying that Hamas was armed to its teeth and was turning Gaza into a Lebanon. Maybe these were all leftist hype? Could be. But I remember some quotes along this line from ministerial-level briefings, too.

    It is not hard to find stuff like this:

    http://www.defense-update.com/analysis/analysis_290407_gaza.htm

    One thing I learned in the army is if you didn't see it with your own eyes you have no idea what you're talking about. And here I'll admit that I wasn't in the army yet during Defensive Shield and I have no right to talk about how the fighting there went. But we all know the results.

    None of those guys killed in Jenin should have died. The place should have been bombed from the air. Since the IDF is scared of what the world will say, they won't bomb from the air and the result will be a lot more unnecessary deaths, I think.

     
  • At 2:31 PM , Blogger Yishai said...

    Great discussion - thank you all.

    I think the issue with Gaza and Sderot cannot be answered in a direct way because the problem is not in Gaza or in Sderot. We all know that the real problem is in the Knesset, in the media, in the courts and in the classrooms. We are dealing with an elite who has totally sold out, most probably for plain money. These leaders wield a mind control mechanism. They have taught the majority of Israeli society to disregard common-sense and have imbued the whole of society with a sense of fear, cynicism, and total dependence on foreign powers. When this matrix-like mind control system identifies a brave Jewish group, they send out the sentinels to crush them - this is the Disengagement and the war against Judea and Samaria. Logic is looked down upon and argued against using tricks of rhetoric and never cogent arguments. It is clear to anyone that the Muslims have a giant land mass and the Jews have a tiny state within that; it is also clear that the Muslims intend to hack Israel in half with the ultimate goal of destroying it utterly. But the mind-control system keeps stifeling these obvious facts

    Given that, our problem is not with Gaza. With Gaza we all know what the right answer is because the Torah spells it out for us: kick em out and take possession of our land. But our fight right now is not with them, rather it is with the Jews of Israel, and more specifically, with that mind control mechanism which has, with malice aforethought, driven out Jewish values and common sense from our people. So the question is therefore: how do we bring down that mechanism, and how do we replace it with the an authentic Jewish-value and common-sense alternative.

    Here are but a few suggestions:

    1. Hold tight, the numbers are in our favor. Normal people are actually multiplying in this country, while the sick ones seem to be dying out. Today's crazy-left is in the throes of death and is trying to retain power to the last breath. Our job is just to outlive them and then to inherit. They, of course, would rather we die along with them, and would rather give the keys to the country to the Arabs then to the "Right-Wing". We just have to keep having kids, keep making Aliyah, keep our connection with Torah, keep being officers in the army, keep fighting for Eretz Yisrael, all this with a clear conciseness that we just need to hold on for a while more. Good times are coming.

    2. Education. Every Jew who is touched by Judaism is changed irrecoverably. Money needs to be directed to all forms of free education: camps, after school classes, and free seminars. Furthermore, alternative media needs to flourish even more: YouTube videos, blogs, Makor Rishon-like papers, Internet radio - anything that can be put out there has a great impact and creates cracks in the mind control mechanism. Moreover, we need to always offer an alternative to those institutions which are used against us. Example: The nascent Sanhedrin must make legal descions on all major cases that come before the Supreme Court. The country must see that there is a better way.

    3. Subterfuge. In Israel we eat a lot of bread, but the vast majority of the flour for that bread is imported from America. If you believe the old saying that "we are what we eat" then you should not be surprised that Israeli's who eat American bread espouse American values. This may sound conspiratorial but I believe that feeding us this Bread of Affliction is another act of the mind control regime. Israeli wheat is the best stuff on Earth and those Jews who eat it are subconsciously made to connect to Eretz Yisrael. Eating Jewish Bread grown by believing Jews in the Land of Israel is like mainlining Zionism. I suggest we create a fund to support the growing of Hebrew wheat and the subsidization of selling it at a cheaper prise then Galut Dough. Get that stuff out to Tel Aviv bakeries and see how Tel-Avivians change their tune in a matter of months.

    I think it is very important to think nationally and to focus on the question "what should be done?" However, it is equally important to ask the question "What can I do?"

     
  • At 12:19 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Yishai, that's fantastic. I thought that I was the only weird one thinking that stuff and the thing about the flour is deep.

    Gil,
    I agree about your dati theory. Ma la'asot, our belief/knowledge leads us to a certain fatalistic view on a communal level, even though on a personal level one has control over his/her actions a la free choice. The people of Gush Katif were screwed big time by Sharon, his govn't, the media, and the soldiers and police 'only following orders', but they, and the orange fans, also accepted it in the end. Well, that was pre-Amona at least.

    This is not conducive to bold political initiatives of any kind. G-d is in charge of those things, basically. We are just men and women.

    This is virtually true because of galut mentality. We've lived for two thousands years as the punching bag of others, it is especially hard for the Haredim to be creative and leave their 'not make waves' mentality instead of leading us. If only they accepted the importance of fighting for Eretz Yisrael, I assure you that they would have a majority in the knesset.

    The leftist mindset, on the other hand, sees the world as a canvas on which Man paints his masterpiece. Anything is legitimate:

    Yes, the left usually don't care about history or bother learning about it to not repeat it. I once heard a theory that leftists are usually optimists who are almost always wrong, while rightists are realists who are usually proven right. The leftists of Israel who simply do not seem to care to make 'sacrifices for peace', seem to forget that every Jew is important, and that there's no such friggin thing as sacrificing even one Jew so others (theoretically) could live and enjoy the beach and mall.

    Elon's plan...presupposes that we have all the time in the world

    We do. Am Hanetzach lo mefached... Deciding that 'time is running out' and that 'something' must be done, is human [Israeli] arrogance. Why does Peres, Sharon, Olmert, and other leftists think that we have to rush to solutions, try 'anything'. Usually letting kids grow up at their own pace instead of trying to indoctrinate them at a higher pace leads to confusion and misdirection. The same is occuring hear. We've won the Oslo war, but everytime it seems as if the Palestinian situation is 'fakakta', along we come to prop them right back up again.

    there are dark storm clouds brewing

    They have been brewing for hundreds of years. Iran's going nuclear? It has nothing to do with the Palestinians. The Persians couldn't care less about the ragtag band of ex-Egyptians, and Syrians.

    Arabs will not take money to relocate.

    not true at all. And frankly, the Saudi's couldn't give a care about the Arabs here. They always pledge massive amounts of money but never pay the entire sum. I remind you that they view the Arabs of Yesha as nothing more than cheap labour and fodder.

    I was border checkpoint commander for a stretch of miluim about two years ago. Each morning, about 10-15 full buses show up from Jericho on the way to the Allenby Bridge. A few return immediately completely empty, the others follow later around noon-time either empty or half-full. I did the math everyday, so can you.

    We are the stupid ones.

    Yes, we can be as strong mentally and spiritually as we were in 48, but we choose to think that we are back overseas and need to accept the goy's wishes.

     
  • At 8:39 AM , Blogger גיל רונן said...

    Yishai, great stuff. I like the flour power theory but I like the other stuff even more.

    Josh:

    I am actually not sure about my own dati theory. It could simply be that the dati community has very little experience in modern state politics, playing the media game, playing the court game and playing the academia game, whereas the left has a much longer tradition in this sphere.

    Let's face it, we are only starting to have a real media presence, and the extreme left is completely in control of the academia. As for the court system... well, I think that the situation is reversible because halacha has a presence in the legal system. Right now the situation stinks, but if you look at the Friedmann phenomenon, I think you get the sense that a revolution from within is quite possible.

    Also, there is quite a clear congruence between the crazy-leftist section of the court system and the feminist section. So when the feminist movement comes down, the court system will be revolutionized. This, again, can be seen in the Friedmann/Beinisch argument. Note also that Friedmann is sounding a lot like a right winger in this debate and Meretz is even saying so now, calling for his ouster.

    Josh,

    We do. Am Hanetzach lo mefached... Deciding that 'time is running out' and that 'something' must be done, is human [Israeli] arrogance.

    See, that is precisely what the rabbis said about Herzl. Herzl saw dark clouds brewing and wanted the Jews out of Europe; they said trust Hashem and take your time. See those swastikas? They'll go away. See that madman saying he'll kill you all? Hashem will take care of him. Pray harder.

     
  • At 12:46 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    So, baruch hashem, we are now finally in Israel. While the Gra started aliyah over two hundred years ago, the modern Haredi rabbis couldn't continue (and still do not motivate either for those living outside). So along comes a total secular and breaks the ice.

    But now we're here. There's no where to go. A) Certainly, if God is protecting us we do not need more land and 'strategic depth', but B) we simply cannot repeat the sin of the spies. We love this land, it is Eretz Yisrael, and it is forbidden to give away.

    Your logic streghthens my argument. Back in the 20th century, the tide said not to make aliyah and they were wiped away. Now the tide says - give away Yehuda and Shomron for peace. I choose to swim against this tide and live.

     
  • At 4:25 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    You have a good points and few clever observations there, but the fact remains that since the Oslo accords, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has gone from bad to worse. (Mis-)Steps of successive Israeli governments (mainly led by deluded Liberals/"smolanim") have brougt about the death of hundreds of innocent Israelis, a more empowered Palestinian "resistance" and a diminished image of Israel as a powerful nation.
    Kadima and Olmert are but the last expression of this long process of Israeli weakness. Israel has squadered opportunities at a time when the US is actively engaed against the global Islamo-Nazism and the Bush Administration has been the most pro-Israeli Administration since the establishmen of the State.
    The desastrously incompetent Kadima Government (which it looks like it is finally coming to an end) has ill prepared Israel for a very uncertain and dangerous future: surrounded by Hamastan in the South and the Free-Hizballah State in the North, Israel is now facing the growing prospect of a nuclear mad Iran. These threats, combined with the danger of an Obama Administration in the US can spell disaster for Israel.
    No matter how you look at things, the new government in Israel must take a very harsh stand against Hamas & Hizballah and will (most likely) have to strike Iran. There is no if and or but. Lets hope that Tzahal is still up to the task, that McCain will beam Obama (and his hords of far-left anti-Israel lunatics) and most important, that God is still with us.
    Stand with Israel

     

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