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*** THE ALIYAH REVOLUTION ALBUM ***

Wednesday, May 02, 2007

Kosher-Style Continued...

By Yishai



Pursuant to my original post called Kosher-Style, and then Pinchas' open letter to me, and the huge discussion that this generated on the Life In Israel blog, I have a few comments:

The notion that Israelis make Yerida to the whole world is simply incorrect. They make Yerida PRIMARILY to the US. One quarter of Yordim, 250,000, live between San Deigo and San Fransisco. Why do they go to America? America is a great country to live in for many reasons, but a major factor is that the US is a philo-Semetic country - and the Jews live very well, and very Jewishly. American Jewry has created an alternative to Israel. Brooklyn's Avenue J, Teaneck's Cedar Lane, Cederhurst's Central Ave, Crown Heights, Lakewood, and many others as well. Shuls are made from imported Jerusalem stone.

Simple psychology - why should any Jew choose Israel if you can be just as Jewish in the US? American Jews are comfortable in every way: economically, politically and religiously, while Israeli Jews face war, terror, and economic hardship. The simple answer for the hard luck Israeli is a Green Card. But, the potential Yored may ask himself, what about Zionism, Eretz Yisrael and all those values? A convenient answer awaits him: If the Frum Jew of Brooklyn can live in America, feel himself totally religious, and EVEN feel that he is actually supporting Israel - then why not join him? You see, the Orthodox are SEEN as the leaders of Jewry, the most connected to G-d. So if one is so connected to G-d, but chooses to live in the Exile, it must be OK after all, this very pious-looking Orthodox American knows much more about his Jewish obligations than I do, a poorly-versed secular Israeli.

Read through the Torah. Read through your Orthodox siddur. If you still believe that the Torah does not mandate a homeland for the Jewish people... then you need to either re-read, or start editing. To be an Orthodox Jew and to reject the centrality of Israel is to stare these holy words in the face and say "no".

The time has come for American Orthodoxy to feel uncomfortable about choosing the Galut. This is NOT about making myself feel higher than others. This is about what Hashem wants - which, by the way, is a discussion that is sorely lacking in this discourse.

Here is how Yehuda Halevi saw it. In his seminal work, the Kuzari, Halevi created a fictional discussion between a Jewish sage and the king of the Khazars. During their discussion, the king asked the sage about the Jewish connection to the land of Israel: "[Since the Jewish religion is so invested in the land and all of the religions based on Judaism have inherited this attachment], don't you [Jews] fall short of your religious duty, by not endeavoring to going up the land and making it your home both in life and death? Since you say [in the blessing after reading the haftarah]: 'Have mercy on Zion for it is the house of our life' and you believe that God's indwelling presence, the Shechina, will return there... it only makes sense that your souls should yearn to go up there in order to purify themselves..." (Kuzari 2:23)

The sage replied: "Your reproach is justified, King of the Khazars. This is the reason that the Divine promise in the time of the Second Temple was left unfulfilled: 'Shout for joy, Fair Zion! For lo, I come, and I will dwell in your midst.' For the Divine power was ready to prevail in Zion as it had in the first place, if the people had willingly returned. But only a small part of the people was willing to return, and the majority and the people of rank remained in Babylon, preferring dependence and slavery, because they were unwilling to leave their homes and easy circumstances…" (Ibid. 2:24)

Halevi views the fact that the redemption has not occurred as a result of the human failure to respond to the values that they purportedly believe in. Redemption will occur, according to Halevi, only when human beings live up to their obligations to God. The US is today's Bavel and American Jewry is choosing to stay put. Non-Aliyah is bad enough, but creating an alternative Israel and attracting Yerida?

By the way, it won't last. Assimilation will do its work. My cousin has married a goy. His kid is a goy. This is happening. My intention in writing all this is to send out a hand to all Jews and to welcome them in to Hashem's greatest gift to this generation -Eretz Yisrael. If you guys want to get hung up on the idea that I am being rude or arrogant - chaval! In your comments you say that I am not aware of the hardships of Israel or in some way don't understand American Jewry. Nothing could be farther from the truth - I am just like you - I am former American Jew with an American Law degree, I know the attraction of America. I have chosen to live my life as a full Jew and now as an Oleh, I deal with economic hardships, I serve in the army and have lost people. BUT, I thank Hashem every day for giving this generation, and me within it, the opportunity to do this Mitzva of Eretz Yisrael, to live this Jewish life, and move the redemption along.

BTW - do you know how living in Israel is like Tzitit??? They are both among the handful of Mitzvot which our Rabbis say are akin to keeping the whole Torah.

Also with regard to Rafi's comment: "Yishai's post, at least as I understood it, was not just critical of the side-stepping of people who do not consider aliya seriously. It was extremely critical and harsh even against those who do consider it but for whatever reason right now cannot."

Nothing could be farther from the truth. I am not critical of those who cannot make Aliyah now at all. I am only trying to disabuse the notion of those who think that America is the final stop on the train. Aliyah is a process - we at Kumah know this very well!

Labels: , ,

posted by Yishai @ 4:35 PM







21 Comments:

  • At 5:24 PM , Blogger Malkah said...

    So I am LOVING the discussion surrounding Yishai's article, "Kosher-Style"! It's about time all us Jews were mixing it up like this - how refreshing! Kol Ha Kavod to everyone who has gotten down into the trenches of this issue - this is how we achieve a little thing called "progress".

    I just wanted to include my response to Rafi at Life in Israel. First, a taste of his post:

    "People get in a huff about aliya, often unlike anything else. Yes, it is important. Yes, it is a mitzva. But is it the only mitzva? Is making aliya really more important and exclusive than any of the other mitzvos that Yishai has a right to declare Orthodox Jews "kosher style"? What if someone made aliya but did not keep shabbos - according to Yishai that is better than keeping shabbos in the USA - is that also "kosher style" or it that really "kosher" and possibly (based on Yishai's tone) even "mehadrin kosher". Is Yishai really God's accountant (a term I saw on Areivim and really like but don't remember who coined it) that he can say with confidence that aliya is more important?" (follow Yishai's link for the complete post)

    Now here is my response. I'd love to know what you think:

    Shalom Rafi,

    I read your article regarding the "Kosher-Style" post on www.kumah.org. While I respect your concern for mitzvot other than aliyah, I find that you are justifying (and even actively engaged in) exactly the side-stepping that is the cruxt of Yishai's post.

    To say that an article you read one time features this one Israeli who went somewhere other than America serves only to highlight that most Israelis do in fact choose America when making yerida. You focus more on the generalization than on its essential veracity - OVERWHELMINGLY, Israelis make yerida to communities close to those of Orthodox American Jews. If you think that this is a coincidence, then YOU need to do the evidence-collecting, or rather, the soul searching.

    Then you make this statement: "People get in a huff about aliya, often unlike anything else. Yes, it is important. Yes, it is a mitzva. But is it the only mitzva? Is making aliya really more important and exclusive than any of the other mitzvos ..."

    This response puzzles and concerns me. First, it strikes me as a distinctly un-Jewish (or rather un-religious) response to the call of another Jew to fulfill a mitzvah which is lacking. Typically, Orthodox Jews are very faithful about the mitzvahs, "running to do" them, as it were.

    To use your example (shabbat vs. aliyah), if you were to meet a Jew in Jerusalem who espouses himself to be Orthodox, and he told you that he doesn't keep the shabbat, you might wonder if he is really so committed. And so why is it that when meeting a Jew in Brooklyn who tells you that he puts on tefillin every day but sees no need to fulfill the mitzvah of aliyah, you don't make the same conclusion? Seems incongruous.

    Lastly, in regard to whether aliyah is a "more important" mitzvah. Well, as many of your readers know, it says in Pirkei Avot that you can't know the value of any particular mitzvah, and so you could deduce that they are equally important. That being said, aliyah is at least as important as keeping kosher, respecting your parents, or maintaining the laws of family purity. Yet one could find a very great value in aliyah, as it affects all the other mitzvahs, and therefore enhances and/or safeguards them.

    The obvious example is one that seems easy for the Orthodox Jew: marrying a Jew/ess. The last statistics I saw on assimilation in the US said that 50% of Jews in America marry goyim. If you take out the Orthodox, that's 70%. The odds of your Jewish child doing any mitzvahs AT ALL outside of Israel in 20 years is, according to the numbers, quite slim. Even if your child in Israel leaves frumkeit, given the social inclinations and the sheer demographics, your child is almost certain to marry a Jew, at least giving your grandchildren an opportunity to return to the fold.

    Furthermore, let's consider the significantly greater depth of the mitzvot in Israel: Pesach, Shavuot, Sukkot, Shabbat, kashrut, orlah, shemittah - there is no comparison between religious practice in Israel (let alone the levels of Jewish knowledge) and that of the US (or any other exile state). In this sense, aliyah is just one mitzvah, and yet encompasses them all.

    Don't let your emotional shock get in the way of your intellectual honesty. It's time that the Jews of the exile understand the seriousness of their neglect and take steps to rectify it.

     

  • At 5:37 PM , Blogger Pinchas said...

    Malkah,
    I have a lot to write about but have to run out soon so I will write more later. I just want to point out that if you really want to be intellectual honest "keeping kosher, respecting your parents, and maintaining the laws of family purity" and all what we call chiyuv mitzvos – required commandments. There is only one opinion who hold Yishuv Ha’Aretz is on this level. That is the Ramban. (The same Ramban people living in Beit-El are so quick to discount as a “das yachid” (sole opinion) when he remarks the Beit-El of the Torah is not the same one you live in today.) The vast, vast, vast majority of poskim hold Aliyah is a mitzvah rushus, like tzitzis is. Of course tzitzis is important! And of course Aliyah is important. The question is would you call someone Kosher-Style for not wearing tzitzis? Would you call them "Chazer"?

     

  • At 6:32 PM , Blogger Yishai said...

    Pinchas,

    1. Do you know of any Orthodox Jews who do not wear Tzitzit? If you saw a Jew who held himself out to be Orthodox, but did not wear Tzitzit or a Kippah, would you be suspicious? Yes you would. So too, the American Orthodox Jew who does not choose to live closer to Jerusalem seems suspect.

    2. Calling the Ramban (Nachmonidies) a Daat Yachid, a single opinion, is silly when the Rambam (Maimonides) brings down: "At all times, a Jew should live in Eretz Yisrael, even in a city where the majority of inhabitants are idol worshipers, and not live outside of the Land of Israel, even in a city where the majority of the inhabitants are Jews. For everyone who leaves the Land of Israel for the Diaspora is like someone who worships idols, as it says, ‘For they have driven me out this day from being joined to the inheritance of the L-rd, saying, Go and serve other gods'" ([Shmuel 1:26:19] Rambam, Laws of Kings, 5:12).

    3. No one called anyone a chazir. I put up the picture and the title for shock value. I was trying to say one simple thing - being Kosher means being an Eved Hashem, serving G-d. Does American Orthodox Jewry have G-d's interests in mind when they choose the Galut? That was the issue that I wanted to bring up.

    Pinchas, stop focusing on semantics and get to the issue.

     

  • At 12:39 AM , Blogger Pinchas said...

    Yishai,

    But that’s my point. If an Orthodox Jew who is a Yirah Shemayim wakes up one morning to find he has no Tzitzis (or if his Tzitzis ripped and became invalid) what would he do about it? He would do *something* about it. He would go to the store and buy a new pair. But while he was on his way to the store is he a kosher Jew? Is he causing other Jews not to wear tzitzis since they can be more comfortable not wearing it since another Jew is not wearing it?

    Again it is about choosing the target right and making it perfectly clear who the target is! Jews that understand the importance of Aliyah and want very much to live here, and are preparing themselves properly to make a successfully Aliyah should be commended and praised! Jews that are going about American Jewish life not giving a thought in the world to Aliyah - should be reminded, with love, that they are "not wearing tzitzis" and they should get their act together and go to the store as quick as possible. They should not be told that everything they do, keeping kosher, keeping shabbos and learning torah is not worth anything to G-d because that’s simply not true, period!

    As to point number two, forget the Rambam. What he quoted is brought down directly in the Gemara. (Using the Rambam to prove Aliyah is a chiyuv is problematic as a strong argument can be made he did not hold this way. There are also arguments he did. Regardless, though he visited and is buried here, the Rambam himself never lived here as a permanent resident. One could also argue he made it too easy for the Jews to stay in Chutz L'Aretz by not making Aliyah.)

    There are four major positions taken by our great sages through history about living in Eretz Yisrael. We are all familiar with the Ramban's. Halachically speaking he is all alone, though of course his position remains critically important as he was among the greatest of the Rishonim. Nevertheless, the most popular position taken by other Torah Giants throughout history up until our own time such as Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT"L was that it's a chiyuv mitzvah like tzitzis.

    Rav Hershel Schechter goes through this very thoroughly and he and all the Torah Gaints that don't hold like the Ramban knew quite well that Gemara you quoted.

    He wrote his opinion here.

    I MUST point out he does not give Jews in America a "free ride" and neither do I. They can't make excuses, and not being able to buy five cars here is no excuse. Aliyah IS of vital importance for the Jewish People and Jewish Soul simple because it is one of G-d's commandments and people that fear G-d will go out of their way to do every single one of G-d commandments as best they could.

    And that's the point to make. If you want to really serve Hashem every way possible how could you forget about Aliyah? Don't say by forgetting Aliyah you might as well throw everything else out because everything else is worthless!

    As for the third point semantics IS important. Because if you don't get the words right you are not saying the right thing. The right thing to say is NOT that "one is not serving Hashem at all by keeping Kosher, Shabbos and learning Torah in exile." And to say that is that is NOT KOSHER!

    The right thing to say is "you ARE serving Hashem - yet your service is not one hundred percent complete. Surly you want to serve Hashem in every way possible. So how could you forget about Aliyah?"

    It might sound like semantics to you but it's two completely different messages.

    As for the other point you made I maintain there is no evidence at all that Yardim make yarida BECAUSE of the Jews in America. Certainly they find it convenient that Jews are there and take advantage of that - but if a yared made up his mind to leave the land he is leaving no matter what. He seeks those five cars I wrote about. Also in reality the yared does not make this decision at all. It is made by Hashem and the Land itself vomits out the people it could not tolerate.

    One last point for everyone out there. We see lots of people are reading this. We know you are out there! We have the logs to prove it. So join in the discussion! Don't let me and Yish have all the fun!

    Kol Tuv,
    Pinchas

     

  • At 9:44 AM , Blogger Rafi G. said...

    Pinchas - very well said.

     

  • At 1:41 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    pinchas.....ours is the G-d of mercy,and "have i any pleasure at all in the death of the wicked....but that he should turn from his wickedness and live"...so maybe we will figure out a way to help them find their way back to haeretz......i am about to make aliyah and i spent 3 of my best years in emek jezreal with an amazing group of farmers\elite commando familes.....the depth of their love for the land\people....heart melting.....the intencity of their struggle....ingulfing...irresistable.....i cry pittifly for all the american jews that miss out on this eternal moment...that i would not trade.....no...not for even five cars...each with its own garage!......and even these most rightwingers have their momments of sighing and say...."why do we fight so hard for this land for,and make our children and wifes suffer.......our american jewish brothers and sisters are never going to come and help us....and these ever so furtile arabs seem to be relentless.....maybe we should just run to austrailyah and live build houses with five car garages....".....and then i would stand up and say to them all with full ashuredness of heart.....khas ve khalilla...this will not be so.....the american jews will be comming soon in droves that so you will have to pinch yourselves to believe it.........and also i work with many israelis that see very clearly that the american dream is nothing more then a wizard of oz type elusion of smoke and merrors that the hollywood jews create for the sleepy goy's.......must i always resort to the most reasant of our history lessons..... as if we have yet to learn them......yeh...thats right....enter.....europian jewrey....say...1935.....five car garages and all....did the land viomit them out....(now typing in tears)....all i can imagine now is another 30 million or so jews in israel....the beautful produce of those 6 million....arabs worst nightmare........i wonder how that would have all turned out.....IF THE HASIDDIC OF THAT TIME WERE ALL SOUNDING THE ALARM........MAKE AHLEEAH NOW.........PS. i love all you guys dave (gils new friend.....) sorry for the spelling....

     

  • At 3:01 PM , Blogger Malkah said...

    Pinchas,

    Two things regarding your latest post:

    1. Let's keep the analogies straight- Yishai's not comparing American Orthodox Jewry to a Jew who woke up and realized that he lost his tzitzit, and had to run to the store four-cornered-garment-less in order to rectify the situation. He's talking about the guy who finished eating his nice, kosher breakfast the morning after a holy, piously-observed Shabbat, realized that he has no tzitzit on and says to himself "Eh. Whatever. I don't believe that tzitzit are a chiyuv. If I'm not fully obligated, I'm sure as heck not going to CHOOSE to strap this extra mitzvah on myself! I'm totally kosher because I'm doing everything I'm required to do". I'm sure if you found out that one of your friends had made this determination, you would be shocked, and wonder why he lost his frumkeit, not think to yourself "Tzitzit, no tzitzit, he's just as Ortho as me!" Be honest. A person's Orthodoxy is often determined by what mitzvahs he chooses to do, and not just by the fact that he technically isn't doing any major aveiras. If you want to argue that it SHOULDN'T BE that way, that's another discussion entirely.

    2. You say "They should not be told that everything they do, keeping kosher, keeping shabbos and learning torah is not worth anything to G-d because that's simply not true, period!". Pinchas, I was surprised to read this from you! This is exactly the kind of hyperbolic accusation galus-defenders throw at us constantly, accusing us of lumping them with complete shaigitzes just because they don't make aliyah. We're not accusing them of being treif. We're just suggesting that people who REJECT aliyah are not AS tuned into the Torah (and hence, lacking an element of piety) as those who embrace even THIS (sometimes) difficult G-dly desire. You disagree? You REALLY think that Jews who actively reject the Land of Israel can be given a sound hechsher?

     

  • At 3:49 PM , Blogger Rafi G. said...

    Malkah - on point number 2 in your response to Pinchas, you say, "You say "They should not be told that everything they do, keeping kosher, keeping shabbos and learning torah is not worth anything to G-d because that's simply not true, period!". Pinchas, I was surprised to read this from you! This is exactly the kind of hyperbolic accusation galus-defenders throw at us constantly, accusing us of lumping them with complete shaigitzes just because they don't make aliyah."
    That is exactly what happened when you said Jews in America are Kosher Style and not Kosher. You (Yishai really, but you agree with him so I say you) could have said there Judaism will be better here, more complete, whatever. But you said living there makes their Judaism into Kosher Style.

     

  • At 4:19 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    I think this is a very important topic to be bringing up.

    For the record, I'm no where near as well learned or observant as you all. But...the more and more I think about it, the exile is a graveyard that will destroy the Jews, ultimately. Israel is where the jewish future will be written. But the exile is very comfortable. I think Yishai hits the mark in many ways; life outside of Israel is comfortable. Change is not comfortable, nor is leaving friends, family, a support group etc behind.

    But I think the answer to this problem/question is organziations like Nefesh B'Nefesh, Kumah. The trickle will start slowly and then build. It's good to ask these uncomfortable questions. At least it makes people think.

     

  • At 4:23 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    One other thing, in case others like me are reading this blog....

    So I sort of keep kosher but not properly. And likewise for shabbat; I try, but it's still a learning process. Yet when I'm in Israel, feeling the holiness of the land and the air and the space, breaking shabbat is not even an option. And kosher food is so plentiful and wonderful, it's really easy to keep kosher.

    So as I look at my current level of observance, and then I think about where I want to go, it just seems so much easier, and so right to be in Israel, where the energy of the land itself conspires to help you along the path.

     

  • At 4:33 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Ok last one for now (well, no promises).

    Each person also has to ask him/herself what they want their legacy to be. Do they want to be bound up in the future and destiny of the jewish people? Who among us hasn't thought or said "what would I have given to be among the early halutzim, in 48 or 67 or 73". That opportunity is still there. We just need to take it.

     

  • At 5:49 PM , Blogger Pinchas said...

    Malkah, Malkah,

    1A. I know that's not who Yishai is talking about. But that's what people reading it are hearing. I'm saying make it perfectly clear to everyone who we are talking about.

    1B. I, and many single Ashkenazi Jews like me don't wear a Tallis Gadol. Are you telling me we lost our frumkiet?

    Nevermind that – I take that question back. But I'll repeat Rav Zev Leff again. If someone stopped wearing Tzitzis most Orthodox Jews would say he is not a Yiras Shamayim – not a G-d Fearing Jew. Had Yishai written that Orthodox Jews that don't give a single thought to Aliyah are not true Yiraeh Shamayim because they are ignoring a mitzvah I would agree with him. But he said they are ""Not Kosher." To me and most Orthodox Jews, "not kosher" equals sinners. You are calling them sinners.

    Would you go and say all the Jews in Haifa that drive their cars on Shabbos are sinners? Of course you would never say that - because they are not. The Chazon Ish among many others tells us they have the status of Tinek Shenishba - a "kidnapped baby" so to speak that was never introduced to yiddishkiet. If we are so liberal with these Jews why are you so harsh on frum American Jews that are not taught in Yeshiva about the Mitzvah of Aliyah? Is that your idea of Kiruv? Rather you tell them lovingly,

    "You like to do mitzvos right?"
    "Of course!"
    "Well there is another mitzvah just like Tzitzis you are not doing."
    "Really!? Can’t be - quickly tell me what it is!"
    "Yishuv Eretz Yisrael of course, do you have a heter not to make Aliyah? Because in our day and age most of the traditional heters aren't so applicalable."

    Compare this to the other approach:

    "You think you are a good Jew?"
    "I like to think so, yes."
    "Well you totally aren't because you don't make Aliyah! What kind of Jew are you? You're a fake and a phony!"

    Malkah, I don't know about you but I for one don't feel comfortable going around calling my fellow Jews sinners!

    2. Good. I agree with you but I am telling you what was written in his original piece is not what you wrote here.
    We're not accusing them of being treif.
    "Kosher-Syle" = Sinner = Treif. If you don't think so I am telling you that this is what the people you are addressing are hearing.

     

  • At 7:36 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    It's funny- I had a conversation with some Israelis last Shabbat about why they live in New York and are in no hurry to return to Israel. It's the tolerance. They're sick of a society where everyone is in conflict and where someone is always challenging your personal freedoms, including the freedom to observe Judaism as one chooses. In America we do have it all. We can live as Jewishly as we'd like. Our Jewishness is enriched by the fact that we choose to live Jewishly- Shabbat observance is not forced upon us, but is a conscious decision. We can visit Israel as often as we want. We're free to be friends with our gay and Arab neighbors. We live in warm, vibrant communities where social justice and humanity mean something. Israel has become less and less a place for people like us and more a place for people like your friend Gil. As long as you embrace a "my way or the highway" philosophy your aliyah efforts will not succeed. If you want to appeal to Jews in the golden medina you have to adopt an agenda that embraces tolerance and democracy.

     

  • At 9:44 AM , Blogger Malkah said...

    Pinchas, Pinchas,

    I'm going to leave the off-point analogies aside, because we end up arguing about them, rather than the main issue, which is the degree of Orthodoxy Orthodox American Jews can claim as a result of their active rejection of the Land of Israel (or those of them who are actively rejecting it, which are numerous).

    1. I very much agree with the thesis of addressing Jews with love and making Israel look good - obviously. Reread the last 5 years of Kumah posts, and I think you'll see we've been very consistent in this regard.

    2. However, I do not think that our often sappy sweetness does justice to the SIN that many American Jews do by rejecting Israel and speaking slanderously about her (and her people). On occasion, one must be made to realize that one is doing something very wrong, not just encouraged to do something right.

    This discussion, in a way, reminds me of the discourse immediately preceding the expulsion from Gush Katif. Many Jews said we simply have to approach soldiers with kindness, telling them not to destroy Jewish homes (please!) and families with their ill-advised orders. Don't use any force, they were told, don't speak unkind words - b'ahava, b'ahava. Ask the Jewish activists who took that advice how they feel in retrospect - they feel like fools. Ask the people who took part in that odious mission how they feel about the results of the expulsion, both socially, politically, and defensively - I bet they wish they'd gotten tougher love, and been forced off that path.

    Orthodox American Jewry can use the "kidnapped child" defense less and less these days - they know very well about the existence of our Land, it's relative prosperity and comfort, and the doability of making successful, life-long aliyah. Many of them have friends, relatives, acquaintances or rabbis who have done it, and they can't claim ignorance anymore. As it is, they are making a choice which is more and more informed - and making the WRONG choice. They should understand that there are people who notice their rejection, and who are disappointed.

    Here at Kumah, we will continue to express our great love and faith in the Jewish people, and our commitment to building an even better and worthier Israel. But we will not forgo an opportunity to cause our brethren to think hard about what they're doing, and hope that they'll get with the program, for everyone's sake.

     

  • At 9:59 AM , Blogger Pinchas said...

    Malkah,

    Fair enough. Perhaps I will join in this Shabbos with the Chassidim screaming at the cars that drive by on Rachov Bar Ilan. "Shabbos!" They've been here long enough. They know what Shabbos is about. I will not forgo an opportunity to cause our brethren to think hard about what they're doing, and hope that they'll get with the program, for everyone's sake.

     

  • At 10:09 AM , Blogger Malkah said...

    You're right, Pinchas. TOTALLY comparable.

     

  • At 10:53 AM , Blogger Yishai said...

    Pinchas, I am not sure whether our argument is semantical or fundamental. One central tenant of my argument is that American Orthodoxy is lacking in their overall relationship to G-d when they deny the central importance of Israel and Aliyah. When a Jew holds himself out to be a Torah Jew he must strive to reach closer to Hashem. If he does not do that, he has missed the spirit of the law, if not the law itself. Your concern seems to be that I called a group of Jews not-Kosher. Semantically, I know they are within the letter of the law (according to some opinions). But fundamentally, I think they are far from the spirit of the law and the will of Hashem. So semantically, I agree with you that American Orthodoxy cannot be called not-Kosher. But fundamentally, my whole argument rests on the belief that I see American orthodox behavior as being less then Kosher. I have a feeling that we agree more then we disagree on these points.

    With regard to calling people names - the screaming of "Shabbis" at Shabbat-desecrating drivers is done by frum Jews. That is not usually my way. But I feel that sometimes it is called for as a wake up call, to stir the pot, to make people feel a bit uncomfortable if only for a bit. I am certainly sorry if I hurt anyones feelings. But, judging by the amount of discourse my post has generated, I am not in the least bit sorry that I did it. Through this discussion I have seen how many Jews love and yearn for Zion and for Aliyah. I have also seen how deeply entrenched some Jews are in the Exile and in Exile-thinking. Again, it was only my harsh words, and a cute piggy, which has brought this out from the bowels of the soul unto the pages of the blogosphere.

    See for example this comment above:
    "In America we do have it all. We can live as Jewishly as we'd like. Our Jewishness is enriched by the fact that we choose to live Jewishly- Shabbat observance is not forced upon us, but is a conscious decision. We can visit Israel as often as we want..."

    This person said it all. Exactly my point. America is a better Israel.
    IN AMERICA WE HAVE IT ALL - AND WE CAN LIVE AS JEWISHLY AS WE'D LIKE.

    Right - except for one little thing - part of being Jewish is living in the Holy Land, close to Jerusalem, following the many mitzvot which can only be done here. The exile has become the new Homeland, the yearning of two thousand years have gone down the toilet. Now I can understand this coming from the secular Jew who has lost his connection with our heritage. But a frum Jew who hears the Torah in shul every Shabbat, has no excuse to build a better Israel in America.

    Continues the commenter: Why choose Israel? - We can visit Israel as often as we want!!!! Meaning to say: "You poor Israeli saps take care of it, send your kids to war with the IDF, and then we'll visit you, with our big bucks, stay in a fancy hotel, and EVEN FEEL SATISFIED THAT WE'VE HELPED THE ECONOMY!"

    Pinchas, suffice it to say, that due to my grating words we have seen a real debate, from Josh who said: "Each person also has to ask him/herself what they want their legacy to be. Do they want to be bound up in the future and destiny of the Jewish people? Who among us hasn't thought or said "what would I have given to be among the early halutzim, in 48 or 67 or 73". That opportunity is still there. We just need to take it," to the above mentioned comments which proved my point so powerfully: "In America we do have it all."

    Little to they know how much their missing by being stuck in the Galut, little do they know the majesty of the living everyday life in Israel, and being close to G-d daily.

     

  • At 12:22 PM , Blogger Pinchas said...

    Yishai I agree. But maybe if I wrote the article I would have replaced the photo of the piggy with a Hebrew National hotdog and replaced "American Jews are not Kosher they are Kosher-Style" with "American Jews might be Kosher but they aren't Glatt Kosher."

     

  • At 2:15 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

    One day that so called land "America where you can have it all" will vomit the Jew from its midst. I wouldn't be so quick to regard it as such. The responses I've seen so far tell me that Yishai is "stirring pot" to the point of personal conviction. Like the Naturei Karta, one can pick and choose a point from Talmud or whereever, and justify his/her position.But Torah is very clear, and as Dorothy said once from the movie Wizard of Oz, "There's no place like home". She got it correct being in a fantasy land like Oz(America), Jews should get it being chutz L'Israel.

     

  • At 9:03 PM , Blogger Pinchas said...

    It was pointed out that my link to Rav Schecter's article did not work. This is the correct link:
    http://www.doingzionism.org.il/resources/view.asp?id=1442

     

  • At 6:38 AM , Blogger גיל רונן said...

    Anonymous:

    "We're free to be friends with our gay and Arab neighbors."

    Now you're making me jealous and that's not nice! I want to be friends with my Arab neighbors too! What's the trick, pray tell.

     

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